Brilliant Voices Episode 3: Maeve and Harvey
Welcome to the third episode of the Brilliant Voices podcast.
Hosted by Woodzick and Ruby Wilson from Islands of Brilliance, this episode delves into the fascinating relationship between neurodiversity and creativity. Islands of Brilliance is a Milwaukee-based nonprofit that empowers neurodivergent individuals through creative programming and digital art.
In this episode, Woodzick and Ruby explore hypothetical scenarios about downloading knowledge directly into the brain, touching on topics like mastering Excel and learning to fly an airplane. They also introduce the "Shiny Rock" segment, where they share joyful and meaningful experiences from their lives, such as the surprising joy of a favorite sandwich with a change in bread and a heartwarming story about Spongebob's voice actor affirming the character's neurodivergent traits.
Ruby then engages in an insightful conversation with Maeve and Harvey, two neurodivergent creatives who use dance and crafting as vehicles for self-expression, emotional discovery, and regulation. They discuss their personal journeys with art, the challenges of navigating academic and professional art spaces, and the importance of creating safe and playful environments for artistic exploration.
Maeve is currently a student at DePaul University working on her masters in Social Work. She received her Bachelor’s in Psychology at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee with a minor in Design. Currently works as an assistant clinician at a therapeutic day clinic.
Harvey graduated from University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign with a BA in Dance and a minor in Psychology. They are a candidate for their Masters in Social Work at DePaul University. Harvey is passionate about teaching and working with kids. They taught dance for many years prior to working as an assistant clinician at a therapeutic day clinic. They love to make art and hang out with their two cats, Blake and Fallon!
This episode is packed with thoughtful reflections on the power of art in neurodivergent lives and the need for diverse perspectives in creative fields. Tune in for a rich discussion that celebrates the unique ways neurodivergent individuals interact with and contribute to the world of art.
Enjoy the episode and don't forget to celebrate your creativity and neurodivergent identity!
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WOODZICK: Welcome to the third episode of the Brilliant Voices podcast. My name is Woodzick, my pronouns are they, them, and I'm the Statewide Outreach Manager for Islands of Brilliance.
RUBY: And I'm Ruby Wilson, my pronouns are they/she, and I'm a Creative Technologist for IOB.
WOODZICK: Islands of Brilliance is a Milwaukee-based nonprofit that delivers programming that uses creativity and digital art to connect with and empower neurodivergent individuals. And this is a podcast about the relationship between neurodiversity and creativity.
RUBY: And one of the things we always do to start off an IOB workshop is a question of the day. So today, Woodzick, I ask you, if you could download any information to your brain, kind of like the Matrix, what would be the first thing you would want to learn?
WOODZICK: I am giggling because in a lot of theater trends, training programs, which we'll be talking about performing arts training programs later today in the podcast, this idea of "first thought, best thought," which I've passed along to other folks at IOB. But my first thought was Excel. Yeah, because, oh my gosh, maths are just, it's hard for my brain to deal. And sometimes I get there. I'm very visually overwhelmed with spreadsheets. And so if I could just like download a patch in my brain to be expert at Excel, but I don't know if I would tell people that I was expert at Excel. Yeah, for sure. But it would just alleviate a lot of tension for me. How about you, Ruby? What would you download to your brain?
RUBY: So my first thought, I don't know if it's, well, we'll say it's my best thought. I would want to know how to fly an airplane. Like just getting instructions in my brain, like that's a lot more powerful than mine. No, no, I like both because I, like I heard yours and I was like, oh, should I do what I could use every day, but maybe I'll fly around. Well, I don't want to pollute the earth. I would do it on a special occasion, but just knowing that information, my grandpa knew how to fly, I think. And like, once he was in a flood and just like when the helicopter flew away. So, you know, I feel like I would continue that. I've always wanted to be in the air. So, you know, I would do that. I would fulfill something--that would be mine.
WOODZICK: Oh, that's such a, that's such a good one. I mean, other things that have popped into my brain since we've been talking are like some sort of cooking specialty. So like you could just look at whatever, whatever you have and be like, oh, I'm going to make this. Like, I think that would be rad. And then, I mean, obviously different languages is what my second one would be. Oh, I had one more. So this may fall more in motivation, the motivation side of things instead of, instead of knowledge, but the ability to look at a space that has a lot of clutter and figure out exactly how many organizational things, like what shelves you need. And then also like how many trash bags you need to do that.
So I guess if it's knowledge, then you would have that knowledge, but then you would have to deal. We would both have to deal with the ADHD paralysis, right?
RUBY: I'm like, I had other things in my head, but then once you said it, I was like, no, I think that would be my first download would be the understanding how to organize or the motivation. Like, I think that would be a quite a helpful tool. Oh, wow.
WOODZICK: Well, there you go. There's, there's many, there's many options, y'all. So now it's time for our shiny rock segment where we each share something that's currently juicy and joyful for us. Do you want to answer first and then I'll go?
RUBY: Oh, sure. Okay. Well, I think we've seen now the past two episodes, I kind of get metaphorical. So this week I am doing it again. So this morning I went to Collectivo, which I've. One of my favorite coffee shops.
Over the years, and I, I, I often with my ADHD, I think this is a neurodivergent thing, is having safe foods. And so they have a sandwich that is like, I know every time I get it, I'm going to be fulfilled, protein, but also like, I know that I'll be able to eat it. And like, it's just a good time. And today I get back and I unwrap it and they changed the bread...
WOODZICK: Oh, no!
RUBY: I know, but guess what? I like this bread better. It was like all of a sudden, just the changing of the bread. Completely revamped the sandwich for me. And now I love it even more. So my shiny rock this week is sometimes change is very hard.
I just moved and that's been an adjustment, but like, sometimes you can just change the bread in an situation and things can kind of shift around or change something. So something doesn't need to completely topple over and be a new sandwich, but just replacing the bread can sometimes bring a new energy to the sandwich. So that is my shiny rock metaphor of the week.
WOODZICK Thanks for sharing that Ruby, I think that's such a great metaphor because I would say safe foods are a thing and also the combination of like breakfast safe foods, like there is never, I feel a sense of panic when I'm like a local drive-thru, I'm going through to get a breakfast sandwich. And if they say, "Oh, we're out of that one." It's just like...
But it's also, I think another way to say it is because I think I, along with other, many other autistic people have the tendency to overanalyze and think about all the different outcomes that could come from a situation. And a lot of times our past experiences informed us that, oh, it's probably, oh, this could be bad. And that's acknowledging that that's our brain's way of trying to keep us safe.
RUBY: Yeah.
WOODZICK: But then also keeping that hope and joy in play and really remembering the times when the new bread made the sandwich better. Think about the good things that could happen too. So, thank you for your shiny rock.
My shiny rock. This is monumental news to me, but I love it so much. And I just wanted to share this joy with our listeners, in case you haven't seen on the internet. Tom Kenny, who is the, the voice of SpongeBob, AKA our yellow spongy icon. There's this wonderful video of him at a presentation, and he shares that he had a big fan of SpongeBob ask him if SpongeBob was autistic.
And Tom Kenny said, "I said, 'of course he is. And it's a superpower, just like it's your superpower.'"
So I love this for so many reasons. One, it's like, oh my gosh, how many times have we been in IOB programming and folks have decided to draw SpongeBob or we had a deep philosophical discussion about optimism versus pessimism in brilliant Breakfast Club through the lens of different SpongeBob characters. And it was fascinating.
So SpongeBob goes over big at IOB in general, but then from an acting and pop culture perspective, I think it is such a powerful thing when actors or voice actors take on the mantle of what their character represents and means to a fandom and can just say--I don't know. I don't know if Tom checked in with anyone before giving that answer, but I think it's something that we can learn from and lean into if your fandom is like, "I think this character might be queer." "I think this character might be neurodivergent." Even if that's not baked into the original character design, it doesn't matter. Characters can evolve. And what a lovely thing to give those actors ownership over being the authority of what their character is or is not.
It was just a lovely, lovely, lovely moment that I would like to see talked about more in pop culture. So that is my shiny rock for this episode.
And speaking of this episode, Ruby, this interview is so amazing. Can you set it up?
RUBY: Yes. So this is our first live in-person episode and our guests this week, or this month, I might say are Maeve and Harvey, who are near and dear, brilliant voices in my own life because they are my roommates. I've known Maeve for about five years. We met in college. And then Harvey, I've known for about one, but they have both been very inspiring in my life. And I think often influenced my thoughts around a lot of different topics we talk about on here.
So I was like so excited for them to come on because I just wanted their voice a part of this project. So a little background is they both work in an occupational therapy setting for neurodivergent youth. And then they are also both earning their masters in social work right now. Maeve has an undergraduate degree in psychology with a minor in fine arts. And Harvey also has an undergraduate degree in dance. All that to say, there is so many cross sections between art and psychology in this episode that it is just quite juicy. And that would be, yeah, that's what to come.
WOODZICK: And you had mentioned to me before we started recording that you were kind of getting over a cold. I think your voice sounds great.
RUBY: Excuse my raspiness.
WOODZICK: Oh, no worries. I wanted to say, since I, I wasn't in the room for this interview. I just wanted to shoutout two moments that really resonated with me before we go into the episode. I went through two theatre programs: an undergraduate and a graduate program that were theatre programs, but had significant movement and somatic components to them. And so I was resonating with a lot of stuff that both of our guests were sharing.
But two of the things that I wanted to shout out were, there's this lovely, lovely moment when they’re talking about different artistic techniques they're using. They're talking about pliés, you know, in the, in the framework of ballet in the episode, but in general, just this idea when we're teaching students about art to frame techniques as this is, "This is one way to go about things.This is the context in which this technique is traditionally used. I'm going to teach it to you. I asked you to give it your best shot in this educational setting, and then you may or may not use it again in your artistic process, but I wanted to expose you to it."
We were talking again before we started recording when I would teach acting at the undergraduate level, I would say consistently throughout the semester, 'I'm going to teach you this technique. This is its origins. This is who uses it. But at the end of the day, there, there is no one right way to go about acting. There's many ways to go about creating a character." And I said a more complicated version of "take what works for you and leave the rest." And I think sometimes we don't get that in artistic educational settings, or different practices.
That's one of the things that's so cool about IOB is we'll give you, we'll let you dig into this software or this, this technique in Blender or in Procreate, and you may or may not use it, but we want to give you this vocabulary, this toolbox, and then empower you to be the one that chooses what you use or don't use in your artistic practice.
And that sort of segues into the other thing about who y'all bring up in the episode, like who decides that art is good or who decides, who are the arbiters or who are the cultural arbiters of art culturally. And just having this awareness, like the people who teach us art are just people themselves. Right?
And, and the art that we put out in the world is a culmination of all of the different art that we've experienced and interacted with. And so if you happen to notice that, like if you're a student in, who's going through a teacher over time, right, over a semester or whatever, if you're noticing that the artists that, or the techniques that this teacher is sharing with you are all from one cultural perspective, if they're all the most traditional one, right, is white cisgender dudes, right? You are empowered to change up your menu, right? If you're not getting diversity of perspectives from a syllabus, we're so blessed in terms of art of all genres being somewhat more accessible on the internet.
Take it upon yourself to sort of open up that lens because at the end of the day we all get to decide what art means for us and what we're drawn to and what we want to share with the world. And so it's just great to hold that awareness of what perspectives have I experienced up to this point, and how can I expand, how can I expand the range of perspectives and see how that influences my art. Said like a former college professor.
RUBY: Yes. Oh, beautiful.
WOODZICK: All right. Well, now we're going to, Hey, how about you throw us to the episode interview, since you drove the car on this one.
RUBY: All right. Yes. All right. Without further ado, let's begin. So grab your fidgets, your snacks, maybe even an art project. That would be fun. Maybe doodle along with us. And enjoy episode three of Brilliant Voices.
RUBY: Welcome back to Brilliant Voices. I'm super excited about today's episode, and today's guests here with me. I have my two roommates, Maeve and Harvey. They are both right now getting their master's in social work, and they also both work in an occupational therapy place. And Harvey actually leads a dance class. So we're going to talk about art and movement and motivation, and a lot of different stuff. And I think there are so many different awesome brains and thoughts in this room. So we're going to have a tabletop discussion today because I thought that that would be quite an interesting thing to capture on a podcast. So to start us off, would you please introduce your name and then also how you use art to self-regulate?
MAEVE: Hi, I'm Maeve. One of the main ways that like throughout my life I've used art to regulate–honestly, from the beginning, I've mostly done like drawing, painting, that kind of thing, but heavily drawing. And I've found that it's like really specifically line work that helps me regulate myself. Like if I know I'm in like a high emotional state or like having trouble processing, I will go and maybe I'll let go. I'll have an idea of what I want to draw or something in my mind. But what is actually regulating is like getting to like carve something with that line. And I think definitely as I've gotten older, I've understood maybe why that is more. And I think it has something to do with oftentimes processing while like standing still can be very difficult or like sitting, but that's just not always available.
Or maybe I don't really want to do that for whatever reason, but motion and processing kind of go hand in hand in my brain, just how it works. And the more I've learned about synesthesia, which is what I have, it seems like a lot of like complex thought and emotion can be represented through like internal physical objects in space. And like, sort of like phantom feelings. And I think drawing definitely was a way to kind of get those like the what's kind of happening internally in that like physical spatial way that might be overwhelming to literally take it out into reality. And like it just kind of I can feel that like it becomes understandable because it's outside of myself. And that's easier to understand when there's too much.
There's too much information.
RUBY: Definitely. Oh. And I feel the reverse of that also. But I won't get into the aphantasia-synesthesia dichotomy yet. But, like, I think that's also; I feel like putting drawing something out also gets it out. And you can also like see it in a different form. And it's a different way to form thoughts, which is quite interesting.
MAEVE: Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm more of a–I use art not to fill my cup, but to empty it. Mm hmm. It's like overflow. Right.
RUBY: Yeah. Yes. Definitely. Cool. Well, I'll slide it on over to Harvey.
HARVEY: Hi, I'm Harvey. I think regulation for me can be through the lens of art. I think a lot of times it does fall into that category. And it can look a lot of different ways.
And it really just depends. I feel like, the state I'm at at that point. And like how like what I physically need. And a lot of times it is like, mostly physical for me. Like, just what can I do that like stops my body and like forces it to slow down? Or what can I do to like pick it up? And like if I'm at like, a low regulation state where I am, I'm just kind of like there's no movement going on, whether that's like in my brain or in my body. Like dancing has been a really great like source of regulation in that capacity where it just like jolts me out of whatever like stasis I was in. And that's been really helpful for my mental health.
And then the opposite end, if it's, if it's like racing way too fast and I begin ruminating, and like having more like anxiety panic symptoms, being able to sit down and hyperfocus on a craft of some sort, like crafts for me have been, I mean, there's, I've done pretty much everything–
RUBY: I love to hear that.
HARVEY: I explore my craft. But like clay work with like polymer clay, making earrings has been really regulating because it is so tedious in ways that like you have to zone in and it is a long process. You kind of have to do it all at the same time. So, or like all at one in one sitting. So, I'll sit for hours on end, like, focus on one thing, which regulates the body so well in my experience, at least, and being able to like really zone in and pay attention–to zone in and pay attention to the feelings inside my body is so much easier for me to do while I'm like focused on like hyper, hyper focused on a task. So, I like I think there's definitely times when I've done that and it's like I have an access of attention or like mental kind of occurrence I guess mental energy and also physical definitely more for me it's more thought-based and emotions. Having something that I have to be paying attention to allows me to like bring my attention towards those emotions and those things I'm ruminating about. So, like a more reasonable amount.
I'm still focused on them, but it's more manageable. I'm not as overwhelmed by like the possibilities and the perspectives and the what-ifs because I have something else holding my attention at the same time. Like, I almost need to double-task. Is that similar for you?
MAEVE: I think for me, a lot of the work that's being done regulation-wise, when I'm crafting like so specifically on one thing comes from the ability to process. I think it's like just an incredible time to process what you're experiencing through life and it gives you such a dedicated time. It's like meditation where you can just like process what you're experiencing and in that in turn it is extremely regular.
HARVEY: I have a curiosity. Do you ever find that the pattern of how you're processing information and when it kind of moves or changes aligns with the actions that you're taking in the craft? Like, do they follow a similar pattern? Does it almost like create a structure for you processing?
MAEVE: Not really. I wish that would be cool. (LAUGHTER) I think that happens sometimes. It's interesting. Yeah, I don't like I, I think that happens for you.
RUBY: Yeah, like I think, well, because I can't like visualize, visualize my thoughts. I also really like resonate with what you just described because I think that I can; sometimes I won't make art in like drawing or like I'll do graphic design, but I won't do it in a way where I'm like “I'm doing this for myself and I'm going to process something” and then I'll come back to it and I'll be like, whoa, I forgot that this was a space that I could talk to myself in that way or I can find out things or process and then I'm like, whoa, feel clearer after that.
But I think I've mentioned this before, but I have; I figured out with me, so I think it was fun. It's fun to have me on the podcast, but I found out a couple years ago that I have aphantasia, so I can't visualize anything, which I think we found out Harvey might be in like a similar because there's a scale which me and Maeve are on the polar opposites and Harvey's hanging out with me over on my end of the scale. But that means that like internally, like if I close my eyes, it's complete darkness. I can't like visualize or conjure anything that isn't like existing in this moment. So I think art sometimes for me is a way to either connect to that part of my brain that might be in like either a dream space or like we've talked about like maybe visuals are still happening.
It's subconscious, though, so I can have thoughts, but then drawing it, it can have those thoughts and it kind of coincides with the visual I'm making. So then I feel like I can like talk to myself through drawing. Like I think I found a couple years ago just letting go of what my hand is going to do and letting it just like tell me something is kind of where, like my art then tends to go now is just because it feels like I'm like going into like a tomb in my body and finding out like a secret code or something like it's like, oh, maybe this is a visual to represent how I'm feeling.
MAEVE: Which I think is really interesting. Like we've talked about before, but if there is maybe something where like you're like you have these understandings and you know these things, but they're maybe not coming up into your working mind at that time. But like we know scientifically that what the working mind may not know the body does know and can do something about it without, you know, communicating.
RUBY: Whoa, that makes me think about dance. Wait, sorry. That's so cool.
MAEVE: Okay, but that's so like I think it's it's an extremely valid and also really cool example of like you are like I know it's happened where like maybe some like an event has occurred and you're still kind of wrapping your head around it. Like how you feel about it on what you want to do and you'll do a piece, and they can come back like after it's done, like the colors I used are like very directly relatable to the feelings. I now understand I feel or like you might talk about feeling like you're running through a tunnel or like the emotions are coming too fast and there's a clear sense of speed in the painting. Like your hand and your mind are, are feeling what they're feeling even if you don't understand it yet and you're communicating it to yourself totally
RUBY: Yeah and it definitely does take me like a three-week cooking process of like coming back to it but also I feel like that's emotions as well like you've said before sometimes it takes me two-three weeks to be like whoa, in the past actually now I understand that clearly so like I think that's just like a very physical explanation of what that emotion was at that time which I think art has that very powerful thing to do of like it can encapsulate how you were feeling in a moment, it can also imbue how you were hyper-focusing on that and like looking back on that you can remember that moment and that was the energy and craft put into that at that time, which I think art has that very interesting power, like I think we've talked about it before of now I'm losing what I've talked about before, what is it? I might go off book.
HARVEY: We've talked about how art can, like, show the emotions maybe that art said like it can be kind of that it's been that connection between us sometimes of like visuals that could come out of your head and I can see like it's this thing that humans can do that can show each other something that might not be in words especially when maybe words are hard.
MAEVE: I think that's important, like, I think definitely the society that we're in for a very long time is language-based, like English-based here, and a lot of neurodivergent people have a different relationship to language than neurotypical people do, and when language doesn't necessarily come up with you at the same time or mean the same thing to you all the time, it's not a very effective tool for communicating and I think that can automatically feel like it's a very effective tool for communicating and I think that's a very effective tool for like something's wrong or not enough.
But I think it can really point out an interesting thing, especially as we see like as neurodivergent people kind of grow into their own and become adults and we get to make these decisions and move how we want to move. That language lacks a lot. Like it doesn't necessarily serve every purpose at all, like I think when we're talking about even just emotional processing, like I think we're understanding collectively that a lot of times when we're talking about our emotions around them happening, we're intellectualizing them instead of feeling them or trying to reason ourselves out of them instead of feeling them and we're kind of not really getting through and processing truthfully; we're logicizing them and that isn't always conducive.
But when we're not so focused on language to describe or communicate our feelings, that does open a door for us to exist in that feeling and I think it being like art is a really good way, like kind of what you were talking about crafting, like it creates that space to just feel how you feel.
RUBY: I feel like even dance, like I feel like that then goes to the other side of it like do you feel like you kind of lose words when you're dancing or is it like a way to physically, like do I don't know
HARVEY: I feel like there's been a lot of different experiences with dance.
RUBY: How long have you been dancing?
HARVEY: I've been dancing since I was two, so I was a little baby in the like exploration classes.
RUBY: Dance is really your friend, like it's that's always something cool to have.
HARVEY: It's also been a journey, yeah.
RUBY: I think something that's been around that long and your life would have different phases.
HARVEY: I mean, I have a full relationship with dance, and it's yeah, I've had many different forms of dance in my life and different like capacities. Like, I was in competition dance growing up through like high school and I feel like I clung so deeply to contemporary modern, I guess you could also include lyrical in that. I clung to it so deeply because I felt like I was able to express my, my well, I was able to express my undiagnosed neurodivergence, like the feelings that I was experiencing as someone who was non-diagnosed or undiagnosed.
RUBY: It gives you that space to move.
HARVEY: Yeah, you're able to conceptualize feelings differently when you put them into physicality. And you’re able to feel those emotions differently, based on different physicality that you are doing. So for me, modern lyrical fell into that slowness–I was also undiagnosed major depressive disorder and was dealing with a lot of depression at a very early age that I had no clue how to conceptualize, because I didn't realize that that's what was going on.
So movement for me specifically, that like slow movement, intentional movement, it was a way for me to like share those deep feelings and that deep, like sadness, that I was experiencing at that time, in a way that made me feel good. I don't know, it like it stuck with me so deeply at that age. And then I moved into I have my undergraduate degree in dance, so I moved into a pretty intense program at University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, and my experience with that movement was very different because it was through an academic lens and it kind of removed personality out of it a bit.
RUBY: Yes.
HARVEY: So I feel like I wasn't able to communicate the same way that I was before which is why I fell in love with drawing and like embroidery and so many different forms of crafting that I didn't have any interest in before because dance was that outlet, so I kind of moved from like being that thing that was able to help me communicate and share my feelings and emotions to being something that didn't allow me to do that. So I found it in other forms of art but I always found it in art.
RUBY: Yeah, definitely.
HARVEY: It's really interesting and I think it's so true what you were saying, Maeve, that this like form of communication is just so special, especially in neurodivergence.
MAEVE: Yeah I think it brings us to different conclusions too like I think there's wisdom in it that I think we police language of such a hierarchy in terms of communication which has a lot to do with like I mean just honestly like views of disability in this country. Like I think there's a big context to that but by placing it at the top we lose so much wisdom from these other forms of communication of like even just having an understanding that like humans have not always had language and yet we communicated. There's an entire planet of beings as cognizant as we are. Who don’t use language. Live fulfilling lives and like care about each other.
RUBY: If you hear in the background we have a couple cats and they're currently doing that as we speak.
MAEVE: But yeah, I don't know, and I think that's like there are so many factors of human life that could benefit from exploring these avenues much more, and I don't know, I'd be interested to see like what the future holds for that. You know? This kind of being more valued and seen because I think there's a context to when art is used in this way or means this, which I think for many if not most artists, that's what this, that's what it is. It holds a different type of meaning that I think like when we talk about like the art is the artist you know, the artist is the art. Like they're kind of one thing, yeah.
It's interesting to look at or like if we're looking at like historical art even they're just like analyzing pieces that we see or performances that we see through like as a human what is this to hold what I feel. When I'm around this work like what does that mean as like to exist with that.
RUBY: Oh, that taps a brain thing of like it's a way–it's a way you could come back to a feeling over and over again too. Like you can put it into that time in a way. It's like a weird time capsule. Or checkpoint.
I think, like, I also want to bring up the point of like things change when either you go to school for art or like something that you've read. That opens a can of worms. Yeah. Like I would say you may both deeply resonate that with that or even just like having the. In the context of I'm going to sell this like having that little demon in your head while you're making something, like I relate to you with like I think graphic design is something that's very accessible. So, like when I was younger, I was like, whoa, I can turn out these ideas that I have in my head quite quickly or I had learned to because art was also something I've been doing my whole life but I've had very different relationships with it at very different times and I know maybe definitely feel the same way. I think all artists would and if you don't call yourself an artist, think: If you've made art then you are.
Anyways, tangent. Back to that. I think yeah going to school definitely changed then how I process and then eyes on that or even eyes in your brain of what that is changes things which led me then to toughening and these different art forms that I think in my head I'm like oh I could sell this but like that I think that would take away that specialness of like that's a solitude thing.
HARVEY: Yeah. I think it's because I've also turned towards crafting different times. Sometimes, in my life where I don't feel fulfilled by my like main art form for honestly the same reasons. I wonder if there's room for a conversation about the fact that those art forms are historically women's work. Yeah. I mean even the work craft. We're more comfortable doing them because they're not profitable or high up. Like, I think that's interesting like we're having this similar dilemma of like my work that is a big part of me is for sale and it's under critique and that hurts and that's uncomfortable. Yeah. I know that I can feel that and get the same significance, yet for some reason I trust that I won't get the same merit that earns me that criticism. It won't be the same.
RUBY: Whoa. My brain's making like explosion noises, but then also like puzzle pieces - I don't know.
MAEVE: I literally never thought about that.
RUBY: Yeah. Me neither.
MAEVE: So it's kind of blowing my mind a little bit. Oh yeah. That's weird. That's so true.
RUBY: Me too.
HARVEY: I was like, 'I just noticed that like I used it and you said it and I knew I was thinking it.' I was like, 'Hmmm. Wait a minute.” I literally was in school to become a choreographer. And I was really good at it. And I quite literally just had one male professor ruin it all for me. Because he made me feel like I wasn't good enough to do anything. And he was trying to get me kicked out of the program because he was a hater. Literally no reason other than that. And I felt diminished and I felt small and I felt like I didn't belong in that community anymore.
I think an interesting point about this conversation that we're having around gender, and like pushing people out and like playing God about who gets to be an artist is very gendered, but I think if we're also going to look at the neurodivergency, we need to look at motivation.
Because we're looking at neurodivergent artists who are not cishet men have this like cascade of issues that we have to confront that other people are not confronting of like, I may love this form, I may get an incredible amount of peace and meaning from it and be able to make money off of it, but the way my system functions, it doesn't want me to do it. It doesn't allow me to take the steps I need for so many individual reasons.
The ways that we see our motivation systems interacting with what our ability to use a medium or participate in it. And then how the academic, patriarchal-like culture of the art world makes that significantly more severe, like amplifies that of like, maybe not realizing that like, okay, teaching somebody a lesson, pushing critique has value, but do you realize the consequences of it? Is there another way to do this that maybe honors the medium more?
RUBY: That does connect with how we started of like, this is our art form, this is how we regulate, but like, am I able to approach that medium when I need to or like, or not when I need to, when I feel like that would help in this moment. Like, that is a bridge.
MAEVE: Like, I know with ADHD, I have like decision paralysis often.
RUBY: Me too.
MAEVE: So like, even when I do know what I want, even if I know that I need to do some form of art, like, I'll like know that I want to do something. But all the steps that involve getting the piece out and getting the materials and sitting down on this, getting a playlist, I'm like, oh my God, wait, are my roommates home? Like, am I going to disturb somebody? Do I even have time for this? Those thoughts will be so overwhelming, I never get to it. And then I never get regulated. And then that kind of continues on a cycle. And so many of the thoughts that I have in those moments, the questions, and the hesitations, I think come from unnecessary limits that are put on us.
Like, those, like, this is the right way to do this. Or this is how you're supposed to do it, or when you're supposed to do it, or the order in which you're supposed to do it, like, compounds that already existing process.
RUBY: Yeah, I fully agree with that. And those are like neurotypical standards. Mm-hmm. Kind of what you're trying to mold to, but that's just, I think then kind of, I don't know.
MAEVE: And then I think that points us into, like, we're talking about neurodivergent minds in art. Naturally, they're going to work differently, and the art's going to be different. That's that, like, different forms of communication create different conclusions. We need different conclusions. We've created the same thing so many times as a species.
What we're looking for, I think, is, in many ways, originality. And those, the way to do things, the right way to do things, the order to do things in, is genuinely, like, gate one to originality.
RUBY: Like a barrier?
Yeah. Like, it's just, it's closed for no good reason.
RUBY: That's something, like, I think in our workshops, it's like, I love how many different ways I can see a student use Photoshop. Or, like, Blender. Like, it's like, I had a, like, I was with a student the other day, and we were building, but we were building as we were playing. Like, we were like, we're in an escape room right now. And we're, like, building levels.
But it's like, this might look like play from outside, but, like, whoa, if you turn back, we just, like, kind of built, like, different levels, and there's blocks, and there's, like, there's a breadcrumb of the energy we just did of, like, art doesn't need to be this serious thing where you sit down. It can involve play. It can have these, like, I don't know what the word would be, but, like, I don't know. There can be so many of those lists of, like, I need to do this, and I need to do this. But, like, if you can, like, kind of, like, hack it and find a shortcut of, like, either, like, fun or, like, there's some kind of thing that could get you to that joy.
Then you can figure it in a different way, and it's approached completely differently.
MAEVE: And it also, it's a new type of art.
HARVEY: It's making me just think of my kids that I teach dance to now. Which is a great segue.
RUBY: Great segue!
HARVEY: Yeah. I teach dance to neurodivergent kids, most of which are on the spectrum. And it is so lovely to watch them take movement that I've prescribed for them and just make it their own. I think that's one of the things that, like. Resonates so much with what you guys were saying, where so much of dance is this very specific technique. And yes, technique is helpful to help you build. It's a tool to help you build with your creativity. But. It's a core point. Yeah.
MAEVE: Talking about tools, but we make them into rules. And that's one thing that teaching kids has shown me it's this tool does not have to look the same way.
HARVEY You can have different colored tools and be so successful in your creativity because it's your own. And literally, it just matters about how this child is interacting with me as an instructor, the other. The other kids in the classroom and the environment that they're in and what does this look like to them. It's so fascinating to see how different brains work and the movement. Like, just give them a prompt. What movement will come from that prompt? It's just, you never know what to expect. And I've found that with my neurotypical kids, too.
But there's something so limitless about what I've seen with my neurodivergent kids because I feel like there's just, I should say, the environment we're in is fostered to be, it's play therapy. So, they feel safe in that environment. And a lot of what I do in the beginning of the class is to provide safety and comfort. And in that body regulation. And that provides such a great base. To just be able to be creative and kind of throw those rules out of the window.
RUBY: Applause all around. Yeah. I mean, that's like making it that tool. And then that's what's going to lead to originality. Like, we shouldn't all be using these things or these movements in the same way. Like, because that's just going to, I don't know.
MAEVE: And I think sometimes it's like, especially in like classroom settings. Mm-hmm. I think, like we're saying these tools, the teacher may know that they're a tool. But they want people to learn the tool. So, they never say that it's a tool. They say it's a rule. And they make it a part of your grade. And that, like theoretically, yes, you're going to teach somebody how to do something.
Is teaching somebody a tool more valuable than helping them grow in their own right?
RUBY: Especially like, I think, bringing motivation back up. Like, when you don't know why you're learning something or you don't understand the context of what you're being told, or like, it can just, I don't know. I feel like neurodivergent individuals, like, I don't know. I usually want that context. Because then I feel like I can really play with it and like digest it. Well, because then you feel autonomy. And that is so usually not included in that group. I think it's so beautiful about how you, like, begin your sessions or even where you guys work of like that. And that I would be like having kind of that, like, base of comfort or understanding.
HARVEY: I think it could, those things could be as simple as like, like if we're talking more on like the drawing or graphic design mediums. Like, this is a method that I like, I would like you to experiment with. I'm going to have you use this method in this project. You may never use it again.
But I want you to see if it teaches you something. That's very different from, this is how you'll be doing projects in this class.
MAEVE: I mean, literally today, I had a dance group and I taught the kids how to plie, which is just bend the knees in a specific position. And then we learned how to saute, which is jump from that position. I like to be honest, wasn't really expecting anyone to follow the very, like, deep specifics of positioning and all that. But what I did see was that one of my kids, who really likes to run. Really loves to jump. And we had the best time just jumping around.
HARVEY: That opens up a whole world of like regulation though.
MAEVE: Yeah. And, like, he loves to go on trampolines. Mm-hmm. Like that experience. He knows, but I don't know if I've ever seen him. Granted, he's a newer kiddo. I haven't really worked with very often, but I've had, I've seen him running, but I never see him jumping on outside of being on a trampoline.
RUBY: But now you've given him this like vessel and hack to do that.
MAEVE: A plié and a sauté.
RUBY: All right. I recommend anyone that wants to start jumping.
MAEVE: You literally don't even need to know those two things. It's just bend your legs in the beginning and the end of the jump. There we go. That's how you do a safe jump. Yes. Protect those knees. Protect the knees.
RUBY: That is valuable information.
HARVEY: So, and they, a lot of our kids do jump for regulation. Yeah. And learning how to bend your knees is really important for the safety of your joints.
RUBY: Yes. This is really bringing back my synchronized swimming days right now. Like it was all about bending the knees and I was flung in the air. But like being underwater, even when you're bringing up the dance, like I think water was so important when I was like in middle school. Because that's when I did it. I was like a middle school synchronized swimmer. So no, nothing crazy. I don't know. But it was–I'm not a competitive person. So it was like I was competitively swimming and doing these things. But like, honestly, if I'm being really honest, I was there because there was a capability to have a speaker underwater. And I loved every Thursday getting to swim laps and there be like really because we would listen to like Avicii and like really like stimulating music. Like, like, like mind music. And then I was like, oh, and then we would practice like, oh, how far can you go without coming up from water? So it's like I really got to like it was like also I feel like meditative in that way because I was like, how long do I get to listen? How long do I? Yes. I did a routine to levels like I will tell you that I had a we had like specialized suits and everything, which that was also a sensory nightmare was for performances.
You had to–do you know about knocks? So they had to heat up gelatin. Yeah. And then it was like a helmet and then you had to sleep in it. And that was really overwhelming for me personally. But I honestly, really just liked the movement it gave me. And I think after that, I think my ADHD, I am quite hyperactive. But at that time in my life, I'm also anemic, so I was very low energy. So I did kind of fall into like a very, I guess, static, static, like, yeah, static. And that's where I think then art then revamped itself in my life when I stopped. I think I really like swimming, but other ways of activity has a lot of those steps that we were talking about earlier for me to get to.
So then art kind of then took back over of like what I used to regulate. And gosh, do I miss an underwater speaker. Like I yearn for that. But yeah, I don't know. Okay. We've traversed many a grounds of what we've talked about today. But something we've started kind of ending the podcast with is joy. Because that is something that's very big at IOB. So for the last question and to round us off with something good, what is something that brings you joy? I could say first, as we just heard, underwater speakers.
MAEVE: Yes, underwater speakers. My cats bring me an immense amount of joy. They're just warm balls of fur and cuddly loveliness. They're great. I recommend a cat.
RUBY: Shout out.
MAEVE: Shout out. Shout out to the cats. Yes. You probably heard them.
RUBY: Yes. No, but that I feel like referenced something we brought up. Like they got their own world going on. They're sentient beings. Love them. Maybe pick one up. You know, the cat distribution system is always in your favor.
MEAVE: Always working.
HARVEY: Something that brings me joy is probably water. Just hanging out.
RUBY: You love a good body of water.
HARVEY: Or really long showers. We have water in common. Yeah. Water is regulating.
RUBY: Water is regulating. Get that on a water bottle ASAP. Yes. Water is regulating. Well, thank you both for coming. I very appreciate it.
BOTH: Thank you for having us. Thank you. Yay.
KATE: Hello. My name is Kate Siekman, Director of Learning and Outcomes for Islands of Brilliance. In today's episode, you heard from Maeve and Harvey – two neurodivergent creatives who use dance and crafting as vehicles for self-expression, emotional discovery, and regulation.
Did you know that it has been scientifically proven that engaging in creative movements such as theater and dance can actually help us self-regulate and understand our emotions on a deeper level? Talia Goldstein, a researcher at George Mason University recently published a book describing her work in the field of movement-based creativity and emotional regulation. It's called Why Theater Education Matters, and it just hit the shelves this week. So, it's currently on my reading list. I encourage you to check it out too.
Additionally, engaging in any creative act, from performing to visual creative arts, pottery, and photography, is supported by the National Institute of Health and their research as an effective means for practicing emotional regulation strategies.
In a world where we aren't always encouraged to stand up for our mental health, I'm here to say that mental health matters, and engaging in creative acts could be that secret sauce in your mental health care routine.
At Islands of Brilliance, we value the artistic process as much, if not more, than the creative outputs, because we believe that there's incredible value in the mere act of creating. We also believe that everyone is an artist. Listeners, I encourage you to travel the road of mental self-care, stay creative, and keep listening to this podcast, where we celebrate autistic identity in every episode. Thanks for listening.
WOODZICK: I loved this episode! Thank you so much, Ruby, for going one-on-one with these folks. It was truly excellent. Dear listeners, if you're feeling inspired to connect with us, please follow Islands of Brilliance on Instagram at @IOBMKE, and you can also email us at podcast@islandsofbrilliance.org.
RUBY: All right, and we've reached the end of the episode, and so hopefully you know what that means, but if you don't, at every IOB workshop, we end it off with, how would a participant like to celebrate? So, Woodzick, how would you like to celebrate?
WOODZICK: Oh, I want to do, I'm going to ask your help, Ruby. I want to do something Spongebob-related, but I am blanking on things that are Spongebob-related. What would you recommend from the Spongebob menu?
RUBY: Oh, my brain just got thrown under the sea, and now–
WOODZICK: I'm- I want to flip Krabby Patties. Yes! That's what I want to do. I'm going to take sound effects while we do it. One, two, three.
(sound effects of slipping and eating Krabby Patties)
Ruby, how to you want to celebrate?
RUBY: You did this last month, I love a good closed eye dance party. 3, 2, 1.
(sounds of mouth music)
WOODZICK: I'm feeling so much joy right now. Dear listeners. We hope you have a closed-eyes dance party, we hope that you flip some Krabby Patties at home, and most of all, we hope that you celebrate yourself and your brain today. Thank you so much for listening to our third episode. We will see you next month on the Brilliant Voices podcast.
About The Brilliant Voices Podcast
The Brilliant Voices Podcast is co-hosted and produced by Islands of Brilliance Creative Technologist Ruby Wilson (they/she) and Statewide Outreach Manager Woodzick (they/them). These conversations focus on the relationship between neurodiversity and creativity. Islands of Brilliance (IOB) is an innovation lab that develops creativity-based learning experiences that improve the lives of neurodivergent children, teens, and adults. We change the way society views autistic individuals.
Connect with us on Instagram by following @IOBMKE, or send us an email at podcast@islandsofbrilliance.org.
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Meet the Brilliant Voices Team!
Woodzick
Woodzick (they/them) is our Co-host and Statewide Outreach Manager.
Ruby
Ruby Wilson (they/she) is our Co-host and an Islands of Brilliance Creative Technologist.
Dr. Kate
Dr. Kate Siekman (she/her) is a Brilliant Voices contributor and our Director of Learning & Outcomes
