Brilliant Voices: Episode Two with Mrinal Gokhale and Ranjit Singh

On the second episode of the Brilliant Voices podcast…

Ruby and Woodzick chat with Mrinal Gokhale and Ranjit Singh. 

 Mrinal is an author whose titles include Saaya Unveiled: South Asian Mental Health Spotlighted and Taboo: South Asian Mental Health Stories. Learn more by visiting linktr.ee/Mgokhale.

• Episode Two Transcript

  WOODZICK: Welcome to the second episode of the Brilliant Voices podcast. My name is Woodzick, my pronouns are they/them, and I am the Statewide Outreach Manager for Islands of Brilliance.

   RUBY: And I'm Ruby Wilson, my pronouns are they/she, and I am a Creative Technologist for IOB.

  WOODZICK: Islands of Brilliance is a Milwaukee-based nonprofit and research lab that delivers programming that uses creativity and digital art to connect with and empower neurodivergent individuals. And this is a podcast about the relationship between neurodiversity and creativity. 

  RUBY: Awesome. And one of the things we always do to start off an IOB workshop is start with the question of the day to get our creative juices flowing. So today, Woodzick, our question of the day is, if you could transform into a mythological creature for a day, what creature would you choose?

  WOODZICK: I'm so glad you asked this question, Ruby. I think a pegasus.Because, you would get to like romp, I would get to romp through the forest as a horse and do horse things. And, like maybe--I recently got to see a talk with Dr. Temple Grandin. So, like maybe Dr. Grandin and I would hang and then, like I could fly. It'd be really, really awesome. What mythological creature would you choose?

  RUBY: I feel like we could fly around together because I would be a dragon. That is usually like, I love dragons. But I also. I really like like when they like, instead of fire, they breathe like smoke. So I'd be like a rainy dragon. I don't know. It'd be like kind of silver and smoggy. So, listeners, also think about what creative or not creative mythological creature you would be.

  WOODZICK: You could be a creative mythological creature. You are not bound within the mythological canon. You could choose your entirely own. Like you could do a mashup. Like a mashup of like a Medusa. Let me, let me...I'm finding it right now. Like a Medusa alien.

   RUBY: Ooh. That'd be a little scary.

   WOODZICK: That'd be a little scary.

   RUBY: No, but I like it.

   WOODZICK: Fly around and just be like...

  (Both hosts make the sounds of what a Medusa alien might sound like.) 

  WOODIZCK:  Last week, I saw a double rainbow. And then I pulled over. And I was like, that's weird that there's a garden hose in the middle of the road and that started moving and it was a black snake and I was like, this is this is mythological or this is an origin story. I don't know. I was getting my hair done. And shoutout to my stylist, shout out to Lisa, who will probably never listen to this podcast, but in case she does! She told me about pine snakes. I was today years old, Ruby, when I learned that there are snakes that live in pine trees.

   RUBY: What? I was also today years old. And maybe listeners, you were, too. 

   WOODZICK: So I think what happened is there was a big storm.

   RUBY: Yeah.

  WOODZICK: And the pine snake fell out, checked out the rainbow. And then I was like, "I got to slither away."

  RUBY: I got to go back to the--

  WOODZICK: Crawl back up a pine tree.

   RUBY: Wow.

  WOODZICK: So now, it's time for our shiny rock segment. And this is where we each share something that is currently juicy and joyful for us. And...so I got sort of...I have two. And that's OK. I was being hard on myself for breaking the rules of my own podcast. And it's like, "but you just don't need to do that."

  So first, I want to recommend Hannah Einbinder's Everything Must Go. You might be familiar with her work from Hacks, the widely popular television series. But she gets really authentic about having ADHD.And she she uses this phrase, "neurodivergentessence." She says it's upon us right now because there's more and more content that's originated by neurodivergent folks.So that's on Max. I highly recommend checking it out.

  And then Geek Girl. If you're not familiar, Geek Girl is, as we're recording this, an extremely popular Netflix series. It's based on a series of nine books by Holly Smale. I came across it because people were given Holly grief on social media that they were commenting on the autistic representation in the series. Like the word "autistic" is never used in the series, but the lead character is autistic and it's based on Holly's life experiences. And I thought she was very lovely in the way that she interacted with folks on social media where she said, "Listen, it's based on my experiences as an undiagnosed autistic young woman."

  Which is like a very common thread with folks assigned female at birth. And so she doesn't use the word autistic because she didn't have a formal diagnosis at the time the events unfolded. And she wrote all of the dialogue. She as a now diagnosed autistic person wrote all of the dialogue for the lead character, whose name is Harriet Manners, who is played by autistic actress Emily Carey.

  And it's very like if you like Emily in Paris, Ugly Betty--It's very much in that dramedy family. Lots of fun fashion. And I highly recommend checking it out. I've been I've been thinking about that series a lot after watching it.

  Ruby, what's your shiny rock?

  RUBY: Yes. OK, mine's going to get a little abstract and artsy. 

  So, something that's been coming up in our programming this week was a lot of artists are working on their styles. And something that's come up - just kind of drawing ugly things or things that right away you draw it. And it's like, 'Oh, that doesn't look like what I thought my brain was going to draw.' This doesn't look like what I want it to be.

  But I think some advice that has kept coming up is: you've got to start somewhere. And I think sometimes it's very freeing to just make some like really weird, crazy art for no apparent reason, because that can always lead to something down the road.

  Like, I was drawing just some really weird squiggly abstract shapes. And then, that led me to discovering how I could like move them around together. So, not necessarily, it being amazing at first, but it kind of pushing that rock down the hill and getting things started is just something still very magical in the artistic process.

  So, I just wanted to hop on for my shiny rock that if you're feeling frustrated about what your art looks like in this moment, know that that is still building across time and can lead to like just cool discoveries down the road.

  So, keep going with your art. It'll it'll go somewhere magical, you don't even expect.

  So, that's my shiny rock for this week.

  WOODZICK: Oh, I feel very, very warm and fuzzy inside after you said that it makes me want to it makes me want to make art.

  RUBY: My rock is made out of felt this week. It's a fuzzy.

  (Laughter.) 

  WOODZICK: Our guests on the podcast today are Mrinal Gokhale and Ranjit Singh. I met Mrinal at the at the talk that our Lead Creative Technologist Natalie Derr gave for Creative Mornings Milwaukee, which will forever be known as the the What Kind of Pepper Are You? chat.

  Mrinal's latest book is called Taboo: South Asian Mental Health Stories. We've included a link to her LinkTree in the episode description so you can learn more about her writing and where to buy the book.

  RUBY: And through Mrinal, we were introduced to Ranjit, who is a thought leader in the diversity, equity, and inclusion field. He founded We Are Saath, which is a national organization whose mission is to increase access to mental health resources for the South Asian community through education, activism, and storytelling. We link to the Instagram accounts for both the national and Milwaukee chapters in this episode's description.

  All right, with that, grab your fidgets, your snacks, your animals, get comfy, and enjoy the second episode of Brilliant Voices.

   Well, welcome to the podcast, Mrinal and Ranjit. First off, would you please introduce yourselves to our wonderful listeners?

   MRINAL: I am an author and a mental health advocate in Milwaukee.

   RANJIT: Thank you for having me on your podcast.I'm really excited to be here. I am Ranjit Singh.I work in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. I'm an activist for for autism and neurodivergence and for mental health. And I run an organization called We Are South, which is an intersectional nonprofit organization about South Asian cultural identity and how it intersects with our mental health.

  WOODZICK: Awesome. Thank you again, both for being on the podcast. Mrinal, I just finished Taboo. It's an incredible piece of work. It's your second book. What is your interviewing and writing process like?How do you choose who you interview? And how do you craft their narrative from those interviews?

  MRINAL: So for book number two, I was well networked enough where I personally knew people who were dying to tell their stories or was able to find some through those that I knew. And for book number one, what I did is I just kind of put in "South Asian mental health" into the Google search bar and Instagram hashtag search. And I found nonprofits, organizations, and public figures who work in the field. And I basically reached out to them like, "Hey, I want to compile a list of stories."

  And I said, "Okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to write about South Asian individuals that have conquered or succumbed to mental health challenges."

  And those orgs put out submission calls on their social media and email listserv, and people would get in contact with me that way.

  And then from there, I would, you know, introduce myself via email and what I'm doing and say, you know, hey, if you're interested, here's a consent form and initial questionnaire from there, we will speak verbally if you're still interested. And then from there, I would have one or two verbal calls with them, get the information and then collaborate with them as I write their story.

  WOODZICK: Could you talk through, how much time does it take to put together one of your books?What's the length of a process?

  MRINAL: So, I'm self-published which means that I did not have to go through a publishing house to be able to gain approval, which meant I could do things on my own time. I was just responsible for hiring my own person or doing it myself for things like editing, cover design, and so on and so forth.

  So book number one only took a few months because it was COVID and I was trapped at home; book number two however took a year. 

  WOODZICK: Can I follow up a little bit?  I was profoundly moved by the stories because, I think we don't get the opportunity a lot to hear folks with disabilities and and mental health concerns speak about that, you know having that person-first language, their own personal narrative, lived experience being at the center. Do you mind sharing what the reception of the book has been?

  MRINAL: Yeah, so I would say that I've gotten most all positive feedback so far. I don't think I've met someone who will tell me to my face that they hated it.

  So, I would say that I think I would notice that I was I've had like you know elderly family members and friends that my parents would you know encourage to buy the book. They said that you know they learned a lot and that they wish that they would have known these things when they were younger and raising kids in this country, and as you know, initially immigrating over here.

  So, I think that that you know can help with things like intergenerational healing, and I think other readers can say things like, "I can relate to the struggle of being a South Asian immigrant's child and dealing with things like stigma, lack of access, and so on and so forth."

  And that makes them feel more validated or perhaps inspired to seek therapy or get a psychological evaluation for themselves, for their kids, and whatever else.

  RUBY: Oh, wonderful, well, that's good to hear, all right. Well, we'll move on to the next question, and so the month that this will be coming out is in July, and so, July is National Minority Mental Health Awareness Month. So, Ranjit, with your experience in DEI work, what would you want employers to be aware of when supporting their neurodivergent workers, and then also how can that support intersect with minority identities as well?

  RANJIT: One of the things with the workforce is it is extremely difficult for people who have autism spectrum disorder from the beginning. The process is set up for neurotypicals, having connections is usually required for even landing an interview, getting the job, and getting promotions. 

  And it's very difficult for people with with autism spectrum to just form these connections. Before the whole process starts, they are left out through no fault of their own. 

  And the interviewing process is extremely neurotypical. I look at interviews as a neurotypical conformity exam because interviewers are looking for neurotypical communication skills and abilities to fit and conform in a neurotypical environment.

  So many people who are neurodivergent just don't get jobs because of this, and people with neurodivergence have a lot of unique skills to bring to the workplace, such as with our high level of analytical abilities and our attention to detail.

  We're not being evaluated for that, and we need to be evaluated for the actual job description and job duties because people with neurodivergence can perform well at that. It's outrageous that people are being judged on irrelevant social and communication skills. We're selecting people to do a job, not if they fit our personal definition of cool or popular.

  For interviewing questions need to be sent well in advance not a token 15 minutes and there needs to be options for cameras on or off and allowing extended time and allowing for fidget spinners or stimming that should be allowed and not judged.

  And asking for an accommodation can be a double-edged sword because by asking for it implicit biases can kick in and if we choose not to come out with it then they will see our see signs of our struggles our communication differences and that will result in an invalidation and implicit biases are not just for race and gender it needs to account for a neurodivergence because even if a person chooses not to come out with being neurodiverse, there are still visible differences, and those differences cannot be targeted.

  The workplace can be a toxic environment for everyone, and for people with neurodivergence, it's even more toxic. Cecause there needs to be rules for no bullying or no being a jerk. Too often, that happens, and people are just told to "man up" or be tough about it.

  People on the spectrum are are targeted by these bullies because of how the bullies perceive them.  The workplace can be described as a kiss-up, kick-down environment, and people who are on the spectrum don't want to play these kinds of games, don't want to play these politics, and they don't have the abilities to kiss up, and they attract people who just want to kick down.

  WOODZICK: I really resonate with what you're saying, and I really appreciate you saying it because, at the end of the day, you should be judged on the job description, right? Objectively what skills does someone need to, you know, do the projects that are assigned to the role? And I think a lot of it comes down to clear communication guidelines.

  RUBY: Mrinal, what piece of advice would you give like any neurodivergent writers out there that don't know where to start in getting their voice out there and published because you did say you're self-published, and I'm really interested in hearing that process.

  MRINAL: Yeah, I think that I've, I've experienced you know neurodivergent and not a lot of people don't know that there isn't just one way to publish a book, which is you know through a traditional publishing house like Scholastic or Penguin or Random House, and whatever else.

  So I'll say now that the three methodologies I know of to publish are: the traditional way that we just spoke, the self-publishing way; or the hybrid way, which is a little less known about, which is where they hire publishing houses with different sets of plans that cost differently based on how much creative control and guidance you receive from them.

  So, I would say, educate and read up about those. Ask yourself, "Why do I want to publish? What do I want to publish?" And things like, "How much creative control do I want/Am I willing to give? What's my timeline and what's my budget with these things?" 

  So, I'll tell you that I'm self-published on the Kindle specifically. Amazon Kindle. Basically, what you do is: all you do is make an account on Kindle Direct for free. And it's free to upload your manuscript on there and your cover. And it's just data entry – uploading the manuscript, giving it a title, setting a pricing point, you're good to go.

  However, it's on you to be able to write the book, to edit it, to design the cover, and so on and so forth, or hire someone who will do those things. And then I think that, you know, there's pros and cons to all methodologies. And, you know, being that when you're self-published, the burden goes on you to be able to do all that work and also do the marketing.

  Whereas if you're paying, if you're working with a company, you have, you know, those strategic people by your side to develop marketing plans and give you clout a bit more easily, so to speak, and all of that. So I think it ultimately, it is a matter of picking what you want and why you're publishing before and what you have the capacity to do methodology-wise.

  RUBY: Interesting. Yeah, it kind of sounds like you have to have a lot of different hats on if you are self-publishing. Was there like a resource that you went to, to like kind of figure out how to teach yourself how to do some of these skills? Or like, how did you kind of like acquire those?

  MRINAL: I hired an editor or two editors, actually. One for editing content, another for editing spelling and grammar. And then I had, I hired a cover designer. And then I initially worked with marketing, social media marketing people to help me build up a presence mainly on Instagram.

  And then I think after observing and, you know, learning from them, you know, what it is that they do and how often that they recommend posting, what types of content is the most engaging and why, and then reading articles about it, I started doing it by myself.

  RUBY: Oh, wow. Interesting. Cool. I'm definitely inspired by how that came together. I don't know--I'm not the strongest writer, but I like; I don't know, I'm very inspired by how it came to be and that you were able to do that. So thank you.

  WOODZICK:  I love; I'll just follow up with; I love the cover. Do you want to shout out the artist for the cover art?

  MRINAL: Yes. Allie Patel, CEO of the Queer South Asian Women's Network based out in Canada is the one who illustrated that cover. And then for book number one, I went with Camila Flores, which is a personal friend of mine who lives right here in Wisconsin.

  So I think, you know, if anything, I hired two women of color for both times. Second one, I was conscious to also hire somebody who was South Asian and even better LGBTQ.

  WOODZICK: Yay. We love that! We love that here. 

  Equity, diversity, inclusion, and, sometimes folks will add access and/or belonging--This work is often framed in the realm of human resources, but there's definitely an artistic quality to this work that can get skipped over. Ranjit, can you, in your experience, can you talk about what we can do to reframe this work as an artistic practice?

  RANJIT: Yes. There is a lot more to diversity, equity, and inclusion, access, belonging, and accessibility than just business needs. If we go back and look at how workplace diversity attempts were made, the first ones were so-called race-blind and gender-blind, with 'race-blind' taking the white perspective, applying it to everyone, and then, gender-blind taking the hetero male perspective and applying to everyone and saying "We're all equal." And that led to people checking their identities at the door.

  Then, the next attempt at workplace DEI is about the bottom line, about the money; in so many business DEI classes, one of the first things we're taught is how to make the business case that how diversity, equity, and inclusion programs will increase the company's bottom line.

  How do we even calculate return on investment for DEI programs to win over skeptics and that how having diverse companies are more profitable, and hiring more diverse people will bring in more diverse markets, which is again, all about the profit.

  Some companies will boast about having employee resource groups or business resource groups, and while they can help with fitting in, one thing to look is as who is choosing these resource groups for these companies because some have just one person of color resource group, or some may have a few, and some have groups for genders and some may or may not have LGBTQ+ groups.

  And many don't have any intersectional groups. And most of the time, these groups are just putting in their labor to answer questions on how to fix the workplace for them, and what we need in the workplace is that we need to bring in people for a cultural addition rather than cultural fit so we don't have to check our identities at the door because the workplace is a place where people can be exposed to different identities and intersectionalities.

  And it's different from college where what everyone's in a similar age group, or most people are in a similar age group. Here, we see a much more diverse age group and people with more diverse experiences in different phases of life, plus all of their different identities and intersectionalities combined.

  And there should be more cross-collaboration between people of all of these different identities and intersectionalities. It's this exposure and getting to work with each other, getting to know each other, that is how we can understand each other, and we can see the uniqueness in everyone; as people, we are all more than just our jobs.

  One very common diversity strategy that we all talk about is having a diverse social circle and this is one way that we can ensure that we have that in the workplace. All identities should be able to celebrate themselves at work, and then we all should be able to join each other in celebrating each identity.

  That's what makes us stronger together.

  WOODZICK: I love that. I'm going to add the "cultural addition" instead of "cultural fit" reframing to my vocabulary, which is just stellar in my opinion.

  And just shout out to our listeners: if you want to learn more about the history of DEI efforts, I highly recommend "Deconstructing DEI" by Lily Zheng. It's a really stellar read.

  So while I was reading Taboo! I was really struck with the theme of folks trying to advocate for themselves or requesting support and not being believed by medical practitioners or institutions.

  Could you both speak to the importance of centering the lived experience of neurodivergent folks? What can we do when folks around us just aren't listening?

  RANJIT: This is one of the hardest parts about being listened to because so many people are tempted to just interrupt. They want to interrupt us or to assume what we're going through, and they want to offer this "quote unquote" advice where they think they're helping us and they're showing allyship, but unfortunately, they are not.

  And people really need to resist the urge to be this helper that individuals may not even be asking for. Even people in the medical profession and people in the therapy professions should also be aware that they do have advices just like everyone does.

  We cannot put people on a one-size-fits-all model, and that when people are talking about themselves, listen to them because people don't have to put in their labor to teach others about themselves. So when they do that, appreciate that and don't try to make them prove what they're going through because everyone's experiences are very unique, and no two people have the same experiences.

  Even people who share some identities in common, their life stories can be completely different. And we need to understand that.

  Even amongst neurodiversity or Autism Spectrum Disorder, in general, it's a spectrum that there's so, so much to it. Each person is unique, and we can't use labels to just frame people and put them in boxes.

  To help those who aren't listening, the best thing to do is just ask them to listen, and just like "I would like to finish speaking" or "I've listened to you, can you please do the same for me? I would prefer to have a two, two-way discussion on this."

  WOODZICK: Absolutely. Mrinal, do you want to jump in and give your response?

  MRINAL: Yeah, I will echo to everything he said and I'll also say that I think it depends on the, in the environment in which we're not being listened, A, and, B, I feel like the term neurodivergent is a bit broad. I think that I feel like most commonly people refer to that term for things like autism, ADHD and learning disabilities, but I think it's technically something that's meant to be inclusive of any and every brain difference period.

  So I think that it depends where we're not being listened to in a healthcare system, in an academia setting, in a job setting, and so on and so forth. And I think that identifying that first would be the key to figuring out how to how to bridge the gap, so to speak.

  And I think that I feel like with neurodevelopmental conditions, so to speak, such as autism and ADHD specifically, I think that there are ways in which the therapy system isn't designed to be inclusive to us in the sense that I think there's flaws with cognitive behavioral therapy. The idea of having a client describe what emotion they're feeling and to what extent they feel it can be difficult for someone with something like alexithymia, for example.

  In the medical, in the medical care system, obviously a lot of professionals may not be trained how to work with clients with these conditions. So, for example, I have a cousin in med school who said that she learned in her training recently that a lot of parents are sending their children off, their autistic kids off to psychiatric hospitals when they should be learning how to better communicate with them, for example.

  And then also, you know, in academia and career settings, you know, the idea of learning differently can be looked down upon and there may not be enough accommodations provided for that.

  And also, there's the social expectations in the job setting too, where someone could just be judged for how they could do the job and hired for that, when instead they're judged as being seen as less likable, and so on and so forth.

  So I can say that I am fortunate. I'm fortunate enough to be networked with things like coaching programs that hire people that identify as, as neurodivergent in some way or the other, for example.

  I know that filter--I know like, you know, websites like Psychology Today could have filters for people to choose their specialty of diagnosis when looking for a therapist, at least for example.

  RANJIT: I was just thinking about this and I did want to add this in addition, like make sure like when we're in any of these environments that, to remember that we do have our rights. We do have a right to be treated with respect.

   And that is, it's the law everywhere. And that we should not be afraid or be intimidated to speak up. And if anyone isn't mistreating us or silencing us or doing anything to harm us, we do have a right to report them. And we need to remember this right.

  Because it's, it's definitely been, it's, it can be very hard at first because if you're going into like seeing a provider and I think provider is someone you're supposed to be safe with, but then the provider turns out not to be safe and, and our sensories are overloaded with what they're doing to, to us and, and we, and we don't know what to do.

  And we have to remember that we do have our, our rights and that we can report people and, and seek recourse for any harm done.

  WOODZICK: I think that's a really great reminder because something that I have to remind myself and those I care about, there are so many systems that rely on our complacency, right? That relies on, well, if something happens, you know, someone isn't going to jump through the hoops of, of filling out the paperwork or making the complaint.

  And I think it's; I like to frame it as self-care. In a way, like I'm, I'm doing what I legally am allowed to do, but also I'm taking care of myself because what happened wasn't right. Someone shouldn't have treated me or a loved one like that. And so many people in this world count on you not speaking up or not sharing your experience.

  And it's; you know, I'm really heartened by the number of folks who are, you know, I'm, I'm really happy that people are, are really starting to set those boundaries.

  On autistic Instagram or whatnot, I've seen two things this week. One was an autistic advocate who said she got offered the PR trip of her dreams, but the organization or the institution, which she did not name, refused all of the accommodations that she asked for. Like one, you know, a flight without connecting flights. Having an aisle seat, having her support person come with her.

  And another one was someone who was asked to speak about accommodations and about neurodiversity, but they declined to accept the gig because they were told in no uncertain terms by the institution that they could only endorse supports that were already in place by the organization. They couldn't suggest accommodations that the institution wasn't already comfortable with.

  And we got to fight back against stuff like this. I know I'm probably going a bit on a rant right now, but don't take that first answer, you know, like dig into it and set--I think it's so important for neurodivergent folks to trust our intuition and feel empowered to set boundaries.

  And I think there's power, such power in communication. And I think there's a lot of opportunity in being able to, you know, send an email you might want to send to someone else, to a friend, to get their eyes on it and all that.

  So I'm just really, that's all to say, I'm really nodding and smiling and resonating with all of the stuff that y'all are sharing in this interview. It's, it's so important because we don't talk about it, right?

  RUBY: Yes. All right. Well, we're almost to the last like end of it. And at IOB, we connect with students by what brings them joy and kind of dive into that into their art projects. So, I wanted to ask both of you before we say goodbye, like, what brings you joy and like, what could you just spend hours and hours like, passionate about? And I don't know, find that joy?

  MRINAL: I would say that since becoming an author it has been a passion of mine to do public speaking, both around telling my story and talking about all things, mental health in the South Asian and Asian American larger community as a whole, and how we can get rid of stigma, and about things like my writing process, and things that I discovered when writing the book.

  And I think that it furthered my interest in the field of psychology which was already present well before that, I read specifically in the area of neurodevelopmental conditions sitting at the top but also all things psychology as a whole.

  And I think that you know, going off of that, what brings me joy is if you've seen my Instagram page, you'll see me creating all this content: informational, and from my book, you know snippets about my own journey when it comes to navigating the therapy system with these looking for a therapist.

  Sharing book samples, telling, talking about my story and so on and so forth. And hearing from people, how many people it's helped.

  RANJIT: And for bringing me joy, like I said just being treated respectfully and being treated well, and at times it can be really hard to find joy in anything when we're being treated wrong.

  So just that good treatment and respect. And what else brings me joy is the I see the gift of being on he spectrum that, by being able to think differently, that I have mental liberation from what society considers to be normal, and that I can always be my own person.

  And I can, you know, see things differently, and be the different perspective, and be able to create change.

  RUBY: I love that; that is like a beautiful way to end the podcast. So, with that, I thank you both for coming on to the podcast. And I ask, what's the best way our listeners can connect with you and your work?

  MRINAL So, I have a link tree, and um, I can drop it in the chat where that has all my writing and social media links; um, I am active on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and a little bit of TikTok as well.

  RANJIT: I don't have any public-facing social media profiles for just myself, but for the organization I'm running, We Are Saath a national organization just on Instagram and We Are Saath Milwaukee is just @wearesouth_Milwaukee_.

  And there, I post a lot a lot of content about different things related to mental health and identity.

  WOODZICK: We'll drop those in the episode description. Wow, my brain feels like fireworks are on the inside, it's a really good feeling!

  Again, thank you both so much, and speaking for both of us, we're really excited to see what you put out into the world next, and we're stoked that you wanted to be part of our podcast!

  RUBY: Yes, thank you.

  MRINAL: Thank you for having us.

  RANJIT: Thank you, thank you for for having me. It was so nice to get to meet you and work with you, Woodzick and Ruby, and it's so nice to get to see you again, Mrinal and work with you again, Mrinal. Thank you.

  KATE: My name is Kate Seekman, Director of Learning and Outcomes for Islands of Brilliance. In today's episode, you might have heard Mrinal Gokhale use the term alexithymia when she was explaining the difficulties that many neurodivergent individuals face when they're navigating certain types of mental health services.

  Alexithymia is a broad term used in psychology, to describe difficulties in identifying and distinguishing between emotions, sometimes alexithymia extends to difficulties with telling the difference between various bodily sensations as well. Alexithymia may also make it difficult to self-regulate. 

  It occurs on a spectrum, often impacted by age, life experience, training, and simply how the day is going that is, it can vary day-to-day for an individual.

  Many neurodivergent folks identify strongly with this psychological personality trait, in fact, it's said that one in ten people experience alexithymia.

  You may identify with alexithymia if you find it difficult to answer the question, "How are you feeling?" or if you struggle to decide if bigger feelings are excitement or in fact in anxiety or sadness.

  You may also relate to that feeling where you can't decide if you're struggling because you're tired, hungry, or overstimulated. No matter how it's presented, people who experience alexithymia often feel alone in their feelings.

  Well, we're here to tell you that you aren't alone in your experiences at Island of Brilliance. We believe that creativity is a very important part of our creativity,

  And visual art often becomes the voices to those who have a difficult time expressing themselves with words, especially for neurodivergent thinkers.

  In fact, Dr. Temple Grandin wrote two beautiful books to describe this phenomenon, Thinking in Pictures and Visual Thinking. I encourage you to check out her works, stay creative, and keep listening to this podcast where we celebrate autistic identity in every episode. Thanks for listening.

   WOODZICK: Such a wonderful episode. So if you're listening and you're feeling inspired to connect with us, please follow Islands of Brilliance on Instagram at I-O-B-M-K-E. You can also email us at podcast@islandsOfBrilliance.com. And hey, like us, subscribe to all of the podcast platforms that we are now currently feeding out to.

  RUBY: And to wrap this up, we're going to wrap it up with a classic I-O-B thing: at the end of each workshop, we ask participants how they would like to celebrate. So, I also encourage the listeners to also participate in this and celebrate getting through the episode. 

  But I'll start with you, Woodzick. How would you like to celebrate?

  WOODZICK: Okay, this is a really corny, but an intro game that I love to death. And so, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to say, "Hi, I'm Woodzick, and I'm awesome!"

  And you're going to say, "Hi, Woodzick, you ARE awesome!"

  Ready?

  RUBY: Yes.

  WOODZICK: Hi, I'm Woodzick, and I'm awesome!

  RUBY: Hi, Woodzick, you ARE awesome!

  WOODZICK: I love it. I love it so much. Obviously, it has a lot more weight to it when a, a whole circle of people is saying that back to you. But it's pretty great. 

  So, Ruby, how would you like to celebrate?

  RUBY: Oh, I'm going to do a classic. This is a fan favorite amongst the students. It's just some jazz hands. You know, I'm a.. I'm jazzing it out. Jazzzy, jazzzy, jazzzy.

  (Sounds of scatting/singing "jazz hands!")

  WOODZICK: Love it! So dear listeners, we hope that you celebrate yourself today. Thank you so much for listening to the Brilliant Voices podcast. We'll see you next month. Bye.

About The Brilliant Voices Podcast

The Brilliant Voices Podcast is co-hosted and produced by Islands of Brilliance Creative Technologist Ruby Wilson (they/she) and Statewide Outreach Manager Woodzick (they/them). These conversations focus on the relationship between neurodiversity and creativity. Islands of Brilliance (IOB) is an innovation lab that develops creativity-based learning experiences that improve the lives of neurodivergent children, teens, and adults. We change the way society views autistic individuals.

Connect with us on Instagram by following @IOBMKE, or send us an email at podcast@islandsofbrilliance.org.

Listen and subscribe on your favorite podcast player:

PodBean App | Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube

iHeart Radio | PlayerFM | PodChaser | BoomPlay

Meet the Brilliant Voices Team!

Woodzick

Woodzick (they/them) is our Co-host and Statewide Outreach Manager.

Ruby

Ruby Wilson (they/she) is our Co-host and an Islands of Brilliance Creative Technologist.

Dr. Kate

Dr. Kate Siekman (she/her) is a Brilliant Voices contributor and our Director of Learning & Outcomes